Forum Camoin dei Tarocchi

[Paul]

Hello all --


We were speculating briefly in another thread on the identity of the creature in Le Mat (harassing the human character). I'll put in my two cents.

Various Tarot scholars over time (even those of the Crowley/Thoth deck school, of which I do not generally follow, but have contributed to Tarot Dialogue) have noted constellations in the Tarot, such as Canis Major and Minor on La Lune, for example. On this note, there's a salient connection between Le Mat and Orion in the constellations.


You may notice Lepus the hare down by Orion's feet. Also, Orion had two hunting dogs, corresponding I think to Canis Major and Minor.


Perhaps, this is Lepus or perhaps it is a hunting dog?

Although I'm not a Crowley/Thoth deck fan, he and other authors noted that the Egyptian equivalent of Orion is Osiris (note Le Mat's green-ness evident on the Conver). Crowley noted this in his deck by making The Fool green. For you Egyptian fans, you would know that the Egyptian constellation lore corresponds to the Greek Constellation lore (because both were looking at the same sky! ).



Accordingly, the Lepus/Hare = Osiris' boat, according to astronomical scholars.



So, I'll vote for the creature being a Hare, or a Dog, or a Boat.

Or, it's an alien.

Paul

[eltarot78]

LePUS / LuPUS, thas a game or letters,
(Canis Lupus=Wolf)
The Tarot plays with letters and words, is a wordplay
uses the language of birds.

[Paul]

Hello eltarot78

I’m going to go out on a limb here and respectfully disagree, all in the spirit of Tarot scholarship.

Lupus (the wolf) I don’t think was known as such until the 16th century. Prior to that, it was a nondescript creature known as Therion. This beast was impaled on the spear of Centaur. Also, let’s look at a constellation map of the Southern Hemisphere. On the bottom, we see Orion being almost tripped really by Lepus. Centaur and his wolf/beastie are nowhere near.

SOUTHERN HEMISPHERE



When I have studied the constellations-in-the-Tarot theory, I have looked for constellation-groupings in the Tarot that correspond to the groupings in the heavens. So, specifically, with Le Mat, we can readily identify those constellations grouped together on a starmap along with the Tarot card. I also tend to pay particular heed to Ptolemy’s 48 constellations, because I’m not sure how the Tarot-Makers would know about the modern constellations (unless something supernatural was going on there, which would be conceivable, indeed ). Or, some modern constellations weren't so modern, afterall, and there may be evidence that some modern constellations were known.

All grouped on a starmap in proximity:
- Eradinus, the river. Orion walks on it, starting his journey.
- Orion.
- Lepus, the hare
- Canis Major and Minor are in the area
- Monoceros (the Unicorn), although this is a modern constellation in my understanding.

All of these features are contained on this card, thus mirroring the proximity in the heavens with the proximity on the card. So, the Lupus connection seems to me to be too far away (literally) on the map.

I think another forum member placed the identity of the creature as Canis Major or Minor. This is plausible indeed, given their proximity in the heavens to Orion. But, the fact of Lepus literally being under the feet of Orion in the heavens just seems too cogent for me...I think we see Canis Major and Minor on La Lune.

Here's a starmap with Cancer included so that we can see Canis Major and Minor near Cancer. On this map we have both the Northern and Southern Hemisphres.



On a side note (as if I haven't rambled enough), I suppose that these characters in the heavens could take on multiple roles. What I mean is, perhaps the Lepus eventually morphs into the Therion with the Centaur; this is sort of like multiple actors playing many roles in the same play. But, I would need to investigate this idea.

Ideas?

[iñigo]

Hi Paul

As probably you observed, there is a thin line between the body and the snout. What you think about. I don´t know if in this english forum or in others, we were speaking about the fake lupus. As probably you know the wolf, or dog, is a ghost.

bye master, congratulations for your interventions

regards

[Paul]

Hmmmm. That thin line is very snout-like. So, a dog?

If so, then it must be Canis Major.

[APOLA]

Ciao i'm Paola and i'm Italian. i'm very interested in this debate and I want to share with you an interesting similarity between S. Cristoforo and le mat

from wikipedia:
"The figure of San Cristoforo would be, also, a legacy of pagan linked to bike astronomical Sirio, star belonging to more constellation of the dog. The Feast of the holy day falls on 25 July and the reference astronomical would cover the period of the "canicola", that in which the rise and set of Sirius coincide with those of the sun." (http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cinocefalo)
(s.cristoforo is the patron saint of travellers)

Ciao a tutti!!!

[frida]

http://www.tarocchi.info/tarocchi/musei ... /1/17.html

[KINOU]

Thanks, but where are Gemini ?